Dragged everywhere !!!!!!!

Friend in Training Joined: 21 Apr 2010 Posts: 24

Hi,

It has been a while since i last posted as me and Rosie have moved yards. She really has changed since we moved three weeks ago, suprise susprise for the better (i think).

As i have mentioned Rosie is on long term bute as she has had some problems with her legs, particular the dragging of her hind leg.

It was tonight that i put her bridle on and me and my friend took her for a walk up the lane from my livery yard, i could not believe her as we set off it was the usual dragging of the leg. As soon as we got out of the gate she was like a different horse she soon picked up her pace! As we walked with her she was a nightmare, nearly taking us into a very steep ditch numerous times and at one point she took off into trot which i struggled to keep hold of her. It was that my friend grapped hold of her and i had hold of my friend trying to hold onto a ton shire horse!!

I am so dissaponted with her that i really feel like giving up, i feel now that my confidence has gone. I have so many feelings tonight as i am trying to think straight. For all that do not Know about Rosie i rescued her last year and saved her life, we do not ride her regular only very light hacking due to her health. Although after tonight i have seen a different Rosie.

I feel that i am really out of my depth with her and i do not know what to do. Please i need your help guys x.

I have thought about changing her bit as currently she is in a loose ring snaffle, i just want respect and control without being in a dangerous situation.

Thanx

Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 6:53 am

How old is she hefa..? Have you done longreining with her or much groundwork..? Do you use a crop..?

Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:31 am

hi heffa, i can totally sympathise, its a scary feeling being dragged about, im having issues with my yearling being strong when i lead her away from my other horses. i personally feel safer being on my horses back than leading them i dont know if other people agree? i obviously cant ride my yearling but i much prefer being on board my other two than leading them. x

Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:58 pm

Did the vet tell you the reason she drags her back leg?
I'm trying to visualize it and wonder if you should even be walking her if she's dragging it? Could her stifle be out and the bute isn't letting her feel it? I'm just throwing this out as my heart bleeds for her and for you. You've got your share of issues and then some, with your mare Sad

I'm a long way from home, but was born and raised not far from Manchester, near Wigan and Bolton. I hope you can either get the help you need with your mare, or find someone with vet connections or deep pockets, who'd be willing to take her on. Best of luck to you both!!

Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:13 pm

My first suggestions is to get a vet exam that includes some xrays of the leg. You need to know what your working with. After a okay from the veterinarian that she is healthy to work, you need to find some one to help you with training this girl. She obviously has the upper hand in the relationship. I recommend TONS of ground work in a round pen, where you are both safe, and you can establish that you are the leader in this relationship. Once you gain some confidence she will also gain it in you and your relationship will blossom. Keep us posted.

Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:38 pm

mmm could be an idae to get the leg checked out, if she is feeling better and stronger in herself then perhaps thats why she is changing,as lots of horses do following rescue x Confused

Friend in Training Joined: 21 Apr 2010 Posts: 24

Hi,

Thanks so much for all your replies.

I have had the vet out working with her from day one, which my vet bills have now gone above £2,000 out of our own pockets. You see she has had svere mud fever since i got her, mite infestation, lymphanjitus which lead to a pitted odema under her tummy and an abscess.

When she started to get over all of this, the leg that she is dragging is the one where she has had the lymphanjitus however she does get lame on the other at times. When my vet came out before she was put on the bute long term, he told me that because she was left long term she was never going to improve, hock arthritus.

Well as mentioned i do feel that since she has been on the bute she now has started to feel better. I do not do hardly anything with her because she does drag her hindleg but my vet has told me she is perfectly okay to light hack, but after yesterday my confidence has gone completley. I just thought i would take her for a walk out, what a big mistake.

I am just in such a state in what to do next, i feel she has no idea what i have done for her and do not know if i can carry on.

Help appreciated x

Thanx

Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 7:44 pm

your a very kind person to of rescued a horse but its pretty obvious you have rescued a huge vets bill! people end up in debt because of that type of thing if u dont have insurance. and im guessing no insurance company will cover her?
personally, i would give her to world horse welfare and buy yourself a fit sound horse. i know you will not get money for giving her away, and u will be out of pocket buying another, but think of all the months of treatment and medicines shes going to need through out her life time. plus it sounds like you have lost your confidence with her after the 'dragging' experience.
if you do decide to part ways with her, dont feel guilty, you will be upset at first but excited and cheery again horse shopping for the next one!

Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 8:11 pm

Poor you. They (often like our kids) don't realize what we try to do for them. We can't expect them to, but we love them all the same. Hence the constant heartache when something's not right.

If your vet says it's okay to lightly hack her and she's feeling good due to the meds, I wouldn't try and take her anywhere she can get the upper hoof, ie away from the yard. As Malissa said, you can do a lot in the confines of a small space such as round pen, or fenced in paddock close to the yard would work. If that's not an option, I'd just work on her manners in the yard itself, until you feel she's listening to you better.

You're limited because she's not sound, so you can't get the edge off her by 'work'. I'd get her out as often as you can, just working with her at the walk. Lots of starts and stops and if she can, backing up (only a couple of steps and nothing too abrupt). You can do lots of turns, big figure eights and serpentines so she doesn't know what you're going to do next. Keep her guessing/interested in you. Don't let her call the shots.
If possible, keep everything positive and happy Very Happy

I don't know that any of this helps, but it shouldn't hurt and they're only suggestions, not trying to 'tell' you what to do Smile

I just posted this and saw Michelle's post above and completely agree, if you're to that point. I couldn't blame you in the slightest.

Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 3:18 pm

what a shame..could you not enquire at a local rescue centre,its a huge decision am so sorry for you xxx

Friend Joined: 01 Jan 2009 Posts: 50

Am sorry to hear you are having problems with your Shire, sounds like you have done a lot for her.
Please don't let her behaviour get you down, you say she hasn't been doing any work recently so she is bound to be a bit keen when she goes out and about.
My boys would be just the same in those circumstances and I would not be confident holding them in a snaffle, I think you may need a stronger bit to get you both over initial eagerness, something with a curb chain perhaps?
It will give you some confidence and hopefully stop her dragging you, long reining will probably be best if she is used to it.
Good luck and I am sure she does appreciate all you are doing for her.

Friend in Training Joined: 21 Apr 2010 Posts: 24

Hi,

Well thanx so much for all your very kind and sensible advice. I have spent most of my time in tears today deciding what is best for both me and Rosie, i have spoken with my vet and i am going to speak with him again on monday.

I have paid all my own vet bills as she is not covered for the illnesses she has had, i do have her insured but it is a waste of time really. You know it is not the money side of things really, however i just feel like i have had enough.

I have tried to weigh up things in my mind but it is just a gut wrenching decision to make Sad

and when i went to see her today i was in a terrible state, everyone on my yard has been lovely and supportive. When i went to the field to bring her in tonight, as soon as i saw her i felt terrible for having those feelings when i looked her in the eye. I just thought who am i to take life away from her if she happy, is it me being selfish because then maybe i should just let her be a retired horse. I hope you can understand my feelings guys?

On speaking with people at my yard i have been given advice of using a stud chain to have more control or a chifney bit. If i was to change from a snaffle to get a bit more control any ideas, i just do not want to go to the strongest bit as i would prefer to work up. Does anyone agree on using a stud chain on the headcollar to lead with, either under or over the nose.

I think in my mind i am going to give it one last go with her, becoming a stronger owner and see how things go. If all fails then i will re-evaluate the situation, i will speak with my vet like i said and take things from there.

If anyone has any other help then please get in touch.

Thank You

Friend Joined: 01 Jan 2009 Posts: 50

Do you feel like giving up on her because of her medical problems or because you find her hard to handle? Is fully retiring her an option for you?

I think you should try her in a liverpool or military elbow bit, it will give you much more control, you are better off using a strong bit gently (assuming you can be light with your hands) than hauling on her mouth with a mild bit. Just try it in an enclosed area first.

Senior Friend Joined: 31 Dec 2009 Posts: 188

I think I'd be booking a session with a Monty Roberts/natural horsemanship type person, as with the big uns, I don't believe there is any point in pitting yourself against them weight wise, whatever artificial aids you are using Wink

Good luck! Very Happy

Master Friend Joined: 20 May 2008 Posts: 353

we have a natural horsemanship man work with george have had since he made me lose my confidence it has change our and georges life george now is a angle and i cant thank our trainer enoph he is fantastic before we found him i almost want to get rid of george as i just could see a way forward now i couldnt be without george he cost us £25 a hr please ask around before you give up i promise you will see a diffrence straight a way we did and they will work with both of you with the horse to help them and with you to show you how to handle the horse its so well worth it

Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 2:34 pm

I work with a natural horsemanship trainer and he is wonderful. I too was at the point where I was ready to give up my horse. I had got him when I turned 25 and had never been on a horse before. After a weekend with my trainer I remembered why I fell in love with horses. I really don't think getting bigger badder bits is the way to go. There is no way a human is going to out muscle a horse this big; your just going to make her brace against you even more. You need to gain confidence and understanding of the horse. You need to learn to be her leader and she will learn to be your follower. Please find a natural horsemanship trainer. Read the book, "True Horsemanship Through Feel" by Tom Dorrance.

Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 3:41 pm

malissa - i totally agree with you about the bits, people that have horses with behavioural problems dont need stronger bits they need their horse - human relationship to be improved. a horse that respects and trusts its owner will not use its size and strength against their human. i know my mare wouldnt we have a very strong bond through monty roberts intelligent horsemanship.

Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 4:48 pm

http://www.mountainviewranch.net

This is the web site for my horse trainer. I know he can't help you where you are, but I like to show off as my picture is on the site a few times!

Friend Joined: 01 Jan 2009 Posts: 50

Just because a horse might be wearing what is considered a strong bit does not mean it has behaviour problems, infact most heavies will not be using a liverpool driving bit until they are well trained.
I am assuming the op's horse is mature and has possibly been there and done it (maybe I am wrong doing that)?
From what I have read time money and patience seems to have run out and a natural horsemanship trainer may be an expense too far.
I had the same problems when I got my horse, I could long rein in the paddock in a headcollar no problems but he got very excited going out, a horse that size dragging you down the road is no joke.
I changed his bit from a jointed snaffle to a myler military bit and the change was dramatic, he learned very quickly that pulling meant pressure and if he stopped pulling the pressure released (no different to NH methods) but it seems traditional methods are somehow considered wrong.

I have a great relationship with my horses as I am sure many who drive/plough using a shanked bit do.

Friend Joined: 01 Jan 2009 Posts: 50

Sorry that turned into a bit of an essay ^^^

Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 6:11 pm

i didnt suggest that georgie so dont be so quick to snap, its saturday night chill woman!

Friend Joined: 01 Jan 2009 Posts: 50

Michelle I don't remember mentioning your name.

I am merely suggesting that the op's horse does not necessarily have a behavioural problem but gets excited when going out and an appropriate bit may be all she needs to give control and confidence.

P.S. I think a stallion chain and chifney are far more severe than the bits I have suggested.

Friend in Training Joined: 21 Apr 2010 Posts: 24

Hi Everyone,

Thank you for all your lovely replies, it means so much to me.

I thought i would just mention that it isn't the money with Rosie at all, it's the fact that i go down do my jobs feed her, muck out , groom her etc and it is i have had enough. I feel drained because i am not getting anything back from her and i bet i am giving Rosie the wrong vibe because i am so on edge with her.

Yesterday (sat) i went and got her a controlling headcollar and i thought i would take her in the menage and do lots of just walking and stops and starts. Well she just dragged me and i am fighting with her all the time, my friend was watching from the side and she observed that Rosie was pulling and using the sheer force in her neck. I thought the best obtion was then to get the bridle on, i do not know if i have posted before about Rosie and the bridle, she will lift me clean off the floor when trying to get the bit in the mouth, it took fifteen mins yesterday. Once we had the bridle on she just was pulling me around.

I do agree with the natural horemanship, and if anyone knows where do i look to find a trainer in the North West area? I am off work for two weeks so this will help me to find a solution in her behaviour.

I cannot honestly thank everyone of you enough, it has really touched me to have all your help at this difficult time for me and Rosie.

I will keep you all updated

Love Liannexxxxxxx

Master Friend Joined: 20 May 2008 Posts: 353

hi im sorry you are not enjoying her at the moment i think its time for you to just take a step back and look at things again
what head collar ar you useing and you have to know how to use a dually etc to get the most out of it i dont believe in if the horse is pulling get a stonger bit but to look at why they are doing it there is usally a reason to it
i also think you should try and get a bond there she doesnt respect you by the sounds of it and you will not win against a horses strenth
we have trained george to lower his head to put the bridle on if we hadnt well i just wouldnt reach
as for finding a nh trainer its usally by word of mouth where are you and i will have a look for you
just to get your self ready have a look on ebay for a blue dually head collar and a 12ft lead rope make sure you get the dvd with the collar i have used these head collars for some time now with great sucess
but as i said let me know where you are and i will look into it for you i know you love her it will all come right xxx

Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 2:46 pm

yes thats exactly what i was saying jack but just worded differently.
If a ton of shire horse wants to take off, it will do it regardless of what metalwork its got in its mouth! if they want to go you cannot stop them! having a good horse - handler relationship is the key

Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 2:46 pm

Friend in Training Joined: 21 Apr 2010 Posts: 24

Hi,

I actually live near Manchester, i cannot thank you enough for all your help. If you find anything please let me know and in the meantime i will get a head collar and DVD etc like you advised. I will keep you updated with all my progress, but i just want to say since i have been posting this last few days i have started to feel that there is some hope.

Thanx

Lianne & Rosie xxxxxx

Master Friend Joined: 20 May 2008 Posts: 353

i dont know if this place is any good or how close you are but it says they can come to you im no good at georgephy ( or my spelling) <a>horse breaking training natural horsemanship </a>

and another

http://www.growtraffic.co.uk/internet-marketing/seo/the-apprentice-horse-whisperer

Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 6:59 am

There is ALWAYS hope Lianne... Very Happy

Good luck...look forward to following your progress...x

Friend Joined: 01 Jan 2009 Posts: 50

Ok, it seems I have given you all the opinion that I think that more tack solves all problems, not the case!

My understanding from the original post was that this is a mature experienced horse that has gotten over enthusiastic on her first trip out for a while and that maybe in the past she has been used to the action of a liverpool or similar bit when she was working ( my old fashioned assumption is that all heavies are driven I'm afraid).

It seems that actually your mare has no respect for you at all and probably thinks it good fun to drag you about on the end of a rope and you obvious need to go right back to basics with her.

While I have nothing against some so called natural horsemanship trainers I think all you need is the help of an experienced horse person, lots of time, patience and repetition.
Good luck

Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 12:09 pm

do you drive your shires georgie? i would love to drive mine once shes older.
yes it does seem this mare is a little on the disrespectful side and it would frighten me if i was dragged about like that by her! i think she would of been on horsemart within the hour Shocked

our shire filly is a handful when we lead her around, shes 16 months old and enormous, we have to keep our cool and do lots of groundwork with her (well as much as we can do at such a young age being that yearlings attention span is very short)
but we will win with her, and she will learn to listen and concentrate but then i have a reason to perservere with mine because shes healthy, has a future as a fabulous broodmare/driving/riding mare so its worth my time and energy. for an older, unsound horse, im not sure if i would be so enthusiastic and i would probably be scouring websites for something else. just my opinion dont want to offend. xx

Friend Joined: 01 Jan 2009 Posts: 50

Sadly my Shire is retired, bought him at 7 broken to ride, soon got him chain harrowing but a paddock injury to a hind leg has left it uncomfortable for him to be pulling anything heavy.

I'm not sure if Rosie is being led or long reined but long reining will give you much more control (even in a headcollar) because you can get her to come round on a circle if she pulls so that she makes herself work hard and you don't end up with longer arms!

Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 2:26 pm

thats a good idea georgie, long reining is worth a try,
sorry to hear about your gelding georgie, im always paranoid about things lying about in the paddocks they can injure themselves on. a friend of ours found her cob filly tangled up in some old fencing just a few weeks ago. its cost her 5grand in vets bills!! the cut went right to the bone

Friend Joined: 01 Jan 2009 Posts: 50

It wasn't that sort of injury, it was just him up to his usual high speed antics, rearing, airs above the ground, sliding stops, you get the idea. It seems he twisted his pastern which led to ringbone.
He also has some issues with his front feet but still does all of the above Rolling Eyes

That fencing injury sounds nasty, mine has managed to roll onto the electric fencing a couple of times Rolling Eyes

Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 4:41 pm

ouch! twisted pastern, silly boy! they are always doing something they shouldn't Rolling Eyes